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@harold wrote:
A lot has been written about the new Formula Sailcraft hull which is being promoted on their web site. Most of is not based on sound information and has caused considerable unnecessary concern amongst those who care about our great Sabre class.
At the request of Formula Sailcraft the National Measurer, Nick Mouat and myself as Vic State Measure, measured the plug for the new Formula Sailcraft hull. Of particular interest to us was determining whether there had been any manipulation to the hull which could be deemed to be outside of the rules.
We found that the new Formula Sailcraft plug fully complies with all the measurements and fully complies with the ‘spirit of the Sabre’ as expressed in clause 3.2 of the FRP Construction Notes. 3.2 says “the FRP Sabre must emulate, as nearly as possible,the construction, shape and performance characteristics of a fully complying plywood boat.”
There are absolutely no grounds on which boats made from this new plug could or should be refused a measurement certificate under the old rules or under the revised rules.
If anyone still has concerns I suugest they read Andrew Graham’s comments. Andrew is National Vice President and a passionate supporter and protector of the Sabre Class. He owns a YMS.
Harold Medd
Vic State MeasurerHi Harold
Can you then please explain why he felt the need to go through the expence and effort of building a new mold, long before the old one was worn out.
I personal would not like to be one of the good Sabre members that purchased an FS boat to find out that my quite considerable investerment has lost value so quickly. This is the type of thing that people who have the class at heart need to take into account, changing shapes of fibreglass boats has serious concequenses on the future of the class, I believe it is this very point that seams to be understood by so many, but being completely missed by those that are advacating for the current drive towards faster fibreglass boat.
It is not only the existing fibreglass boats that will be de-vauled, but indeed that wooden boat will fall behind.
So to all I ask you to please take sometime to really consider the issues that are being discussed thoughout the Association and think about what good will come from allowing lots of different shaped fibreglass boats?
I am sure when you take in account what is BEST for the class you will conclude that we need to lock down the fibreglass shape and only that will protect the members who have invested in the class and build it towards a great future.I am a little curious that it seems assumed a wooden boat is slower than glass. If you look back through Nationals results (last 10 years), there was always a mixture of builds with wood dominant in wins.
The results have shifted since aorund 2009/2010 to glass but prior, both builds were competing side by side successfully be it wood, YMS or Botteril glass etc. Why was wood ok then but noted as not being competitive now ?
Having owned 3 wooden boats historically I love the look of the wood. Maintanence however takes away time which I can invest elsewhere – be it paininting, varnishing or a larger job like reglassing etc.
FRP removes these issues. I would suggest FRP is just as much about convenience as it is about performance. I also noted there are just as many glass boats at the back, middle and front of the fleet as there are wood.
Additonally glass boats come ready to race. Fittings on, mast rake sorted, etc. In a busy world with long hours, young kids and other family commitments getting the time to sail on Saturday is often a big enough challenge. The above provides a sailor the opportunity to be competitive day one – which of course you pay for.
Ashley
Cookie Monster 1886Hi all
I would like everyone to please stop trying to change the Sabre as it is these changes that makes the older boats slower and it is a never ending cycle that WILL, yes WILL eventually destroy the class and there will be no way to put it back together.
Please take some time to take a look at other countries and you will see that the biggest threat to the Sabre is intenational boats like RS and unless we make the class very strong and not destroy all the current boats.
At the end of the day there are not 2000 Sabres since 1978, this is not a large class!
Hi Barry
I must have been at a different AGM compared to the one you are discussing here, I was under the impression that it was agrree to hold off on the rule changes until they can be properly discussed and looked at agian at the March long weekend in Aderlaide. Maybe I mis understood what was going on! 😳
I agree mostly with your post, but I can help with the weight of a timber boat, if you use paulownia timber you can build the wooden boat very much under weight. Mine was 3kgs under and it was glass both inside and out, but rememeber not to use too much glue as it adds up.
One of the advantages with paulownia is it does not soak up water.
I would be far more concerned with the new rule changes and the glass boat becoming any faster than they are now.
As a casual observer to this discussion I am a little disappointed about the responses to Barry. As a long time class supporter for two decades, I do not believe that Barry would in any way risk the safety of the class.
Feel free to express your views but some common courtesy and respect should be exercised. Particulalry for some one who volunteers there personal time for no other outcome than to see the class prosper.
In regards to moulds/wooden boats, it is a fact of life that people will push the rules. People have done this with both wooden and glass boats for the past 20+ years. The end result is the boat gets measured and some signifincat alterations are required if the boat does not measure. Alterations have been enforced for both professional and amatuer builds historcially (be they glass or wood) on many occasions.
It is also a little incorrect to assume that all boats from a mould are 100% indentical. Factor such as if the hull was fully cured/modified after the boat has left the mould may introduce minor variations. Again the catch all is the boat must measure.
Currently there are at least 4 moulds that exist for Sabres being YMS, SailCraft, YachtWorks and J Sly. The moulds are not identifical but each produces boats that measure which is what Barry is referencing.
Is the Sabre committee to judge that one mould is faster than another and ban them despite the fact that boats from that mould measure? The criteria that all boats are judged by are they must measure.
Persoanlly I’d rather invest my energies sailing my boat and improving my own performance than worry that some other boat may be 1 % faster one the water. I am also sure if I lent my boat to a past nationals champion winner ist guaranteed to go faster than it currently does.
Ashley
Cookie Monster 1886@Barrye wrote:
Greg is under the misunderstanding that there is a ‘master’ mould that has in some way been either approved or ‘licensed by the association.
There has never been a master mould. Builders build their own moulds. It is a fallacy to think that all existing frp boats are the same shape. Each builder has a slightly different shape but they all measure. It should be remenbered that the Sabre was originally designed for timber amateur construction, hence the tolerances.
Most moulds have been taken from successful timber boats.
E.G. the YMS mould was taken from multiple national and Vic champion Wayne Bates timber boat. That boat was one of the many successful timber boats built by Ray Eade. Similarly, the Formula sailcraft mould comes from a plug built by Phillip Johnson (ex long time national Measurer) and is quite different to the YMS shape.Bottom line is that the mould is a red herring and irrelevant…the boat i.e. the output is what MUST Measure.
Proposal 42 is only intended to make it quite clear that existing FRP boats and foils built in the past 20 years are clearly legal…nothing will change and it is a complete furphy to say some sort super boat will be produced as a result. Good luck to anyone who can do it and still be on min weight and actually measure.
There has never been a legally ‘licenced’ (as defined in the current rules) Sabre builderI can also tell you that with all but NSW and 1 Qld delegate, also voting has been received and proposal 42 will be over whelmingly passed.
I dont intend to continue the debate.
Barry Eastgate
National SecretaryClearly Barry you do not comprehend the issueand have taken no intest it what the majority of people are warning against. The Sabres mearurme nt rules were and are not designed for fibreglass boats. You do not need to make a mold to build a glass boat and with the current rules there are many things that can be manipulated, very easy and very cheap. Once past the devistaion and devission it does to a class it absolutly massive, I have seen it first hand. There is always someone who is will to spend the time to build a faster boat and it WILL Happen.
So I hope you all have a plan of how you are going to hold the class together once this occurs?
I have recently been involved in some informal discussions about the rule changes and wish to voice my opposition to the changes, particularly the removal of the requirement to develop boat moulds off a master mould. I can only see this change as leading down a development pathway which would have a number of effects. Firstly and probably most importantly the previous moulds would become obsolete long before they wear out and at about 20 grand a mould this can only lead to increasing costs for competitive boats. Granted you could still build a boat in timber but a strong benefit of the class is the cheap competitive sailing and with the price of the GRP boats going up markedly I see a division of the fleet along cost lines, aka cheque boat sailing. This brings us neatly to the second major problem getting new participants into the class in second hand boats. If the second hand GRP or timber boats on the market look and perform very differently to the front runners it will be considerably harder to sell second hand boats or entice people into the class.
The association may wish to consider putting such significant changes to the class and potentially its future viability to a full membership vote rather than just a representative vote.
@HelterSkelter wrote:
I hope for the future of the Class that all Associations can require their Delegates to listen to the members and vote appropriately. My worry is that the majority of members are not concerned with the problems concerning the class and are happy if the boats look alike (despite being quite different). The class has a good following but this can be quickly eroded when older good quality entry boats are not competitive. This is happening to a lesser degree now and will become the norm if the post 2014 boats take over at the head of the fleet. Do we want this to happen?
I also understand the argument that the same situation may occur if boats are built to set plans but at least all post 2014 boats will be the same and winning will depend on ability in a level playing field.
HelterSkelter
Alan WilsonAbsolutely correct… and do not for one minute think that it will not happen to Sabres, once someone builds afarster boat, they all want better and the old boats are worthless, I have seen many sucessful class crash over the years. As one example just have a talk to anyone in the 125’s and they can testify to the result of allowing development.
The only way to have a one-design glass boat is as the rule stands, thats why it is written that way and for the love of the little boat we all love to sail, DO NOT CHANGE THIS RULE!!!
Who wants Cheque Book Sailing?
@oztrack wrote:
You need to contact your SA delegates to make sure that they are clear that you are opposed to this proposal. Also, get as many of your colleagues to do the same, as soon as possible, as the period for response closes on 30 November.
Peter
Does anyone understand why it is delegates and not being voted on at an AGM?
Surly we are all members of the associtation?
I also agree with Helterskelter and request that the SA delegates hear the members concerns, this is a change in rules that is not required. Also it is time for the association to follow the current rules and approve the moulds that exsist and stop allowing the building of new shape glass boats, before Sabres become a cheque book class.
I have read this thread with interest, but it appears to me at the end of the day if the Sabre is going to survive and be relevant in the future then it needs to be as much as possible a One-Design boat.
This is best achieved by using current fibreglass boats as the template; I think it is that simple.
Anything else is opening up something that just does not need to be, other than, for those who would use rules to try and gain an advantage, I could see no reason to have lots of slightly different shaped boats.It appears to me that we need to be very careful in changing this rule.
I for one agree with most of the arguments put forward here, we have a great boat, lets keep it that way and strive to have the FRP boats as much one design as possible.
How ever I so no reason why anyone shouldn’t be able to use an existing FRP boat to take the mould off and then they can home build, that keeps the FRP boats all the same shape.
